ID Corner Podcast

Welcome to Episode four of the ID Corner podcast,

where we talk about everything teaching and

learning. Over the summer, I had the opportunity

to attend the International Forum on Active

Learning Classrooms held at the University of

Minnesota as a first time attender. It was an

enriching time, learning about current practice

and an opportunity to meet others passionate about

active learning. One of the contacts I made put me

in contact with my guest for today. Dr. Christian

Schindler was a teaching specialist at the

University of Minnesota School of Dentistry. So,

Kristen, can you please share for our listeners a

little bit about your role in the School of

Dentistry? Sure. So I started in the School of

Dentistry about three and a half years ago as a

postdoc at first, and I was researching

bacteriophage. And through that, I had the

opportunity to start teaching in the microbiology

and immunology courses, specifically doing the

component of the immunology then and from there,

it just sort of grew. And I'm at the point where

I'm directing the microbiology and immunology

course for the dental students, a similar course

for the dental hygiene students. And I also

directed biochemistry course for the dental

students. So I teach quite a bit. Awesome. Thank

you. Can you specifically describe the the course

for which the this activity that we're going to

talk about is for? Yeah. So this this activity is

a final project for the microbiology and

immunology course for the dental students. And so

the way I inherited the course was that it had

four fifty point multiple choice exams and that

was the grading system for it. So there's about

one in and students in the class. It's a really

big class for what I'm used to. And so getting

those assessments graded quickly with feedback was

a concern. I'm not the biggest fan of multiple

choice exams, particularly basing an entire score

off of that. So the first thing I did was to

integrate some podcast assignments into it for a

couple of years, where students listen to some

Radiolab podcasts and talked about how scientific

communication happened relating to topics. And

from there I decided that projects and different

assignments like that, where students could really

think about the content and apply it to different

situations that could be relevant to their

profession gave me the biggest understanding of

their understanding of the material is presenting.

So I moved the assessments for the course to one

fifty point exam and everything else is project

based assessment. Wow. Wow, that's awesome. So

you've mentioned the assignment a little bit. Can

you can you give us some detail about it? Yeah. So

I found this paper several years ago in the

Journal of Microbiology and Bilel Biology

Education and A.M. publication where a professor

had started having his students create murder

scenes from an infection with a microorganism. And

so students worked in groups to create these these

murder scenes, essentially these homicide scenes,

and design different clues to point to the

identity of the microorganism responsible. And

then they went through and sort of solved all of

these crime scenes. And I thought, wow, what a

great way for students to be exposed to a wider

variety of microorganisms. Get some practice

comparing and contrasting features of bacteria and

viruses and fungal pathogens as well as parasites,

and to really hone in on some differential

diagnosis skills that they need as practicing

clinicians, since my students are dentists. So I

took that paper and used it as sort of a

foundation to to design the final project or my

course. OK, so so this assignment, as you've

described it, really meets some of the the

important course objectives that you've got for

for your students. Yeah. And I think it's a useful

and sort of fun, low stress way to really get to

those higher levels of doing taxonomy during

assessment without. Creating some really intricate

problem for students to solve or some long essay

to write or something like that, and there can be

a group component and an individual component as

well. Awesome. Yeah. So I have kind of the next

question I had was why this type of assignment,

which I think you've kind of been answering. I

mean, any time, any time you can bring fun into it.

I think it's a it's a great thing. How how have

students received this assignment? Does the group

project and I know from my experience, group

projects are kind of like, I don't want to do a

group project. So. So what's been your experience?

Yeah. So I've only done it one year so far. Full

disclosure, but it was much more successful than I

anticipated, so that was really, really great. I

actually only had one student comment negatively

on the group aspect. So one person said group

projects are never a good idea. But that was the

only negative feedback I got, which I was shocked.

I expected a lot more pushback. One thing I did, I

let the students choose their own groups. So I

presented 11 different microorganisms that they

could choose from. And the class was divided into

two groups, worked on the same micro-organism and

they could sign up then based on the five of us

want to work together or hey, I'm really

interested in this microorganism, who else is

interested in it? So the groups formed in both of

those ways, sort of organically. We just used a

live Google doc to do that. That was kind of fun

watching students edit. Sure, sure. There are

groups and things in real time. Would you do it

the same way again? Just kind of let it happen

organically? You know, I think I would because it

seemed to work. I haven't asked students if they

preferred forming their group first and then

picking a microbe or just sort of signing up for a

microbe and seeing who else was interested in that.

But that would be some interesting sort of

feedback to get. And then another thing I did to

to really make sure that the groups were

functioning well together for the group portion

because the group grade was worth about half of

the project, was I incorporated self-evaluation

and peer evaluation into it. And I was really

careful with the peer evaluation chunk. And I said,

you know, you can earn up to five points and it's

going to be an average of the scores you get from

your other group members. And if your average

score from the peer evaluations is under two point

five, so essentially 50 percent, you don't get

peer evaluation points. So I made it sort of your

group members have to be satisfied, reasonably

satisfied with your contributions to earn those

points. And everyone did earn them. But there was

that range of evaluation points. So it just sort

of up the stakes on you need to be involved in

this component. Sure. And so that was five points

out of their total score. Yeah. And I think. I

can't actually remember off the top of my head, I

believe the group component was worth 50. Yes,

five points and then I think, yes, a total of 50

for the group. Yep. And then the the individual

component where they actually went through and

solved crime scenes was also worth fifty points.

So you could earn half of the points for the

entire project on your own, which is another way

to sort of alleviate those groupware concerns. Yes.

Yes. So this is in the context of the course. This

is a final project. What kinds of support or

scaffolding did you provide the students before

they get here, both in terms of the the activity,

the content itself, but then also the peer to peer

and group kind of dynamics, things like was it

just here you go? Or so I made a document that

sort of broke down. Here's a group component of

this, and you earn your points in these ways. So

the main component of earning points in the group

project or the clues that you provided in your

crime scene. So sort of building out the crime

scene for your classmates to solve the self and

peer evaluation. And then you also had to provide

the rest of the class with the information to

solve the crime scene. Right. So you made the

groups made a little ID card that had things like

symptomology of the organism, whether it's a

bacteria or virus, it's gram positive, gram

negative. Those types of informations,

epidemiology, any vector associated with it, the

sort of critical pieces of knowledge and then a

sort of a fun, creative bit, I had them create a

mug shot for their their perpetrator, if you will,

as well. So there was very clear point values

associated with all of those. And I tried to

provide a clear description about what you needed

to do to get to those point values and have an

independent part was a little easier because it's

it's solving the crime scene. Right. You identify

what the microorganism is that caused that crime

scene and then give me a treatment option that's

available in one way that that could have been

prevented. So to bring in the treatment and

prevention and I also showed them an example. So

when we talked about it in class, I went, for an

example, crime scene with them so they could have

a general idea of what other people had done.

Awesome. Awesome. What have you learned about

student learning through this activity? So in

general, I'm still working on that, I guess is the

best answer. I've actually started to do some

research on this. I just got the IRB approval for

an exemption for education related material. And

I'm looking at the way this can these sorts of

projects can impact student retention of the

general principles of microbiology. So because

I've taught this course before without the project,

I have control groups sort of one year post class,

two years post class, and I just give them a short

term question, multiple choice quiz about what I

think our main concepts that I would like them to

know long term. And then I'll do that with the

groups that have done the crime scene project as a

final project as well to see if it is enhancing

their retention of the material. That sounds

really exciting. Yeah, on a lesser scale, just

sort of the comments from the course were pretty

positive. A lot of students said that it was a fun

way to learn. They said that they liked seeing how

creative their classmates were, particularly when

they're in other rigorous, structured science

courses. That doesn't that maybe don't give the

outlet for creativity as much. So it gives them

more of a glimpse into their classmates,

personalities and interests. And I had a few

comments that said you should keep this around

this group. So that was nice. Very cool. And I

guess the last question that I've got for you

related to this is, is there anything that you

would change? So you've done this once. Yeah. Is

there anything that you would change about the

assignment and why? Yeah, so I think I would

shrink the group size No. One, so I had groups of

four or five this time. And one comment that I got

from a student would kind of stuck with me. They

said, you know, with a group of five, we each sort

of picked a certain aspect of this microorganism

to research and tackle. And I didn't really feel

like I learned much about the microbe as a whole.

And so I think that limiting the group size, you

would get more of an overview because you'd be

more in tune with different components of it. And

it would also give me the opportunity to increase

the number of microorganisms in the project itself.

So we had 11 last year, which was a decent number,

but I'd like to get in more that have more closely

related symptomology so it can be a little bit

more difficult to discern them. You have to pay

attention to a little bit more. And I also wish

that students incorporated more sort of diagnostic

tests into their clues. So I was hoping for here's

a picture of a gel from a PCR reaction or

something along those lines. So I was thinking

about scaffolding. I want this many clues about

symptoms, a maximum of this, many clues about

epidemiology to really make it have more aspects

of the disease represented in the crime scenes. So

those are the sort of two things that I am working

on refining a little bit. That sounds very cool.

And I think as you're describing it, the the

changes one will make the the exercise more. I

mean, you mentioned more difficult, but at the

same time hopefully provide a greater opportunity

for the students to learn more detailed

information. So thank you for sharing that. One

thing that you mentioned earlier that kind of

piqued my interest also is that you said you

mentioned that you've done podcasting and I don't

have any scripted questions about that. But I

would be interested to hear how when I think about

biology, immunology and podcasts, that they're not

two things that I would immediately put together.

And so that that sounds very interesting to me.

Can you share a little bit about that? Sure. So I

have always been a fan of the Radiolab podcast. I

think that they're very interesting and they're

presented really well in an engaging way. And a

lot of the topics of their podcasts have to do

with microorganisms. I talk about in microbiology

concepts. I talk about in microbiology and

immunology. So the way that those assignments work

is I pick five different Radiolab podcasts that

relate to content we're talking about in class,

and students have to pick two out of the five to

listen to throughout the semester. And so they

have a little bit of control to pick information

that's most interesting to them. Or I think a lot

of times it might boil down to I don't have a lot

else going on this week because they can get sort

of swamped with exams. But that's that's fine, too.

And what they do is they listen to it. And then I

ask them to write just a short one to two page

response to me about how did this podcast relate

to content we covered in class? What did you like

about how these scientific concepts were presented?

Did you think that the podcast did a good job

talking to a broad audience about these concepts?

So so people who might not have a strong biology

background or other type of scientific background,

and how do you envision using these sorts of

communication methods with your patients in the

future? So how can you use this as a springboard

for talking about scientific concepts with your

patient? Was maybe an accountant or an electrician?

OK, very cool. Have you ever so you're having the

students evaluate the podcasts? Yeah. OK, have you

considered having them create podcasts? I have. Um,

and so right now I don't have an assignment where

students specifically have to create a podcast in

the biochemistry course I direct their final

project is to choose a disease that affects the

sort of craniofacial region and explain the

biological basis of that disease and its diagnosis

and treatment to. A patient in a way that most

patients can understand, and I let the medium of

that wide open, so I have had students submit

podcasts to me through that assignment and they're

just always really fantastic. They made them

really quirky or sort of funny things. Some of

them even pick their own introduction music. I had

one student who interviewed his brother as a guest

on the podcast for his final assignment. So those

are those go well, I just haven't dreamed up a

project yet where the only podcast should be

submitted. Sure, sure. How have you thought about

and how do you go about assessing? So if there's

if there's an option for a podcast or whatever,

how does how does the assessment of that differ

from an exam or a paper or how have you have you

worked that into into that. Right. So for that

particular project, everyone is submitting some

sort of information piece. So I have had

everything from the podcast to children's books to

pamphlets you would pick up at a doctor's office

to a recorded PowerPoint presentation. Someone did

a YouTube video. And so I try and take the

creativity out of it as much as possible because

those sorts of projects always intimidated me when

I was in school. I don't think of myself as a

particularly creative person. I have like zero

drawing abilities. So what I do is I make really

detailed rubrics about this is what I want you to

tell me about the biological basis of the disease.

This is what I want you to tell me about the

treatment of the disease. This is what I want you

to tell me about the diagnosis. And so the point

values are for the science itself, for people that

like sound information and then appoint value for.

Did you communicate this to a broad audience?

Right. So if you're trying to talk to a kid about

cavities, is this accessible for someone who's 10

years old or if you're trying to talk about

oropharyngeal cancer or are you talking to someone

who's an electrician in a way that they understand

and don't feel overwhelmed about it? So the medium

is is left to the students to show their

creativity and they're not judged or graded on

that component. Awesome. Thank you. You really

highlighted how the objectives, the the things

that you want the students to demonstrate really

are key and that the the medium isn't as important

in that in the or. Exactly. And that can, I think,

increase the fun of the project and decrease the

stress as well. And that's a big thing that I want

to do, is allow students to communicate to me how

they've learned and progressed throughout the

semester in a way that they're comfortable with

because most people just aren't comfortable with

exams. Right. They're high stress environments. So

if you can do it in a fun way, why not? And

there's one agreed. It is not a catalogue or a

stack of. Yeah, just scantron sheets or whatever.

Right. It's really get a sense of the personality

of each student. And I feel more connected to my

classes after these projects. I think that would

resonate with a lot of a lot of people. You know,

we're we're always talking about sense of

belonging and student engagement and retention and

all of those things. But I think what it comes

down to is that that connection between the

instructor and the student, you hit the nail on

the head. So thank you. Of course. Well, I really

want to thank you for your time and your

willingness to be interviewed. And it was awesome

to be able to talk with you today. So we're going

to take a quick break and then I'll be right back

to share some closing thoughts about the interview.

Welcome back. I think that there are three key

ideas that we can take away from Kristen's example.

First, learning objectives are key. All of the

work that students did was informed by the

learning goals that Christine set for her class.

Christine had a clear idea about the skills she

wanted the students to develop and then identified

an activity to meet those goals. Second, the

medium doesn't matter. The creative media forms

that students use to complete projects were

secondary to the objectives and skills that the

students were working toward. Not requiring a

specific format or medium provides choice for the

students in representing what they know. Lastly,

the option for creativity benefited both student

and teacher. The students were able to participate

in a fun activity. They were able to bring more of

their authentic selves into the project. The

creativity also benefited the teacher in not

having to grade lengthy papers or exams. I hope

that this interview has inspired you to consider a

project based approach in your teaching. I hope to

have Christian back in the future to discuss the

results of her research on the effects of her

project based approach. My guess is that her

students will retain the information better

through the project versus exams. Thank you for

listening. If you do not already, please subscribe

to the podcast. The Corner podcast is available on

Apple podcast, Google Play podcast and Spotify

notes. Resources and episode transcripts are also

available on my blog at staff Lawrence Dunedoo.

Rex Jay, have a great day.